Infuse/Apple TV 4K Correctly Produces 24p Output for HD-DVD Movies

[Macy]

UPDATED WITH ANSWER AND SOLUTION - This applies to the Apple TV 4K running tvOS 12.1.1 and Infuse Pro 5.9.4

Encouraged by James that Infuse fully supported Direct Play of VC-1 from a Plex server without transcoding, I purchased an Apple TV 4K yesterday to run my own tests on whether it would correctly produce 24p for HD-DVD film-sources. I’m very happy to report it works as I hoped it would IF THE ATV4K IS SET UP AS DESCRIBED BELOW.

In order to get 24p (actually 23.976) video output without judder from HD-DVD film-sources (i.e. no frame or field repetitions added to the 24p film frames) the ATV4K Format must be set to 4K SDR 24Hz or 1080p SDR 24Hz (use SDR since HDR didn’t exist for HD-DVDs), AND SET Match Frame Rate OFF. That’s all there is to it. If Match Frame Rate is ON, the 24Hz setting will be over-ridden and the output will be 60p (59.94) with judder.

See my comment #8 below for more information.

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I’m a long time (too long, too old) video product design engineer, but I’ve never set up a movie server for my home theater until now. So I just started experimenting with Plex and that led me here with 2 questions.

1. Does the Infuse Plex Client on ATV4K fully support Direct Play for VC-1 and eAC-3 in a MKV container ripped from HD-DVD’s with MakeMKV? I want to completely avoid transcoding VC-1. I haven’t purchased an ATV yet because of these questions, so I can’t just try it. If it doesn’t work (and also see my 2nd question) I will look for another solution.

I saw a couple references to Infuse supporting VC-1 ripped from HD Blu-rays, but no mention of VC-1 on the Infuse product page, and I found nothing here about HD-DVDs (I have about 200 of them so it matters to me).

2. Assuming the Infuse Plex Client supports VC-1 Direct Play - how does it handle HD-DVD VC-1 rips with 24p video encoded as interlaced sequences with repeat_field_flags? Please correct me if I remember that wrong from 2006, but I recall that was a key difference in how Blu-rays and HD-DVDs encoded 24p.

I’m asking because I’ve run a couple of Plex experiments with ripped HD-DVDs and the Android Plex client in a Sony TV reports the VC-1 MKV video as 1080i, rather than 1080p(24). And then it appears to convert that (apparently using the repeat-field-flags) to 1080i, which it ultimately displays as 1080p with 3-2 pulldown judder. Since the TV is 1080p24 compatible, it should ignore the repeat_field_flags and reassemble the VC-1 interlaced sequence as 24p. That’s what I hope that the Infuse Plex Client on an Apple TV 4K will do.

Bottom line - I want to get 24p without judder from my HD-DVD movies, just as the final generation of HD-DVD players did (1st gen HD-DVD players didn’t output 1080p).

So to perhaps simplify the question. Does Infuse produce 1080p24, 1080i60 (with 3-2 pulldown), or 1080p60 (with 3-2 pulldown) for HD-DVD (24p) movies?

Thanks in advance to anyone that can help answer my questions.

[james]

Welcome to the forum!

Infuse will direct play VC-1 and E-AC3 in MKV (and other) containers, so you should have no issues there.

With regard to the handling of HD-DVD material, Infuse includes a pretty advanced VC-1 decoder, with great support for interlaced material. There’s a good chance it will just work, but due to the relative scarcity of HD-DVD discs and players I’m afraid we don’t have any relevant samples here to confirm this.

If you are in the mood to upload a sample of your own, we’d be happy to test it.

Submitting Video Samples

[Macy]

@james

Welcome to the forum!

Infuse will direct play VC-1 and E-AC3 in MKV (and other) containers, so you should have no issues there.

With regard to the handling of HD-DVD material, Infuse includes a pretty advanced VC-1 decoder, with great support for interlaced material. There’s a good chance it will just work, but due to the relative scarcity of HD-DVD discs and players I’m afraid we don’t have any relevant samples here to confirm this.

If you are in the mood to upload a sample of your own, we’d be happy to test it.
Submitting Video Samples – Firecore

Thanks for replying here and in the other thread. I apologize for discussing my issue in 2 related threads.

Very good to hear that VC-1 and E-AC3 in MKV will direct play. That’s a big deal. I’ll check that one off!

I got the impression from the other thread that it wasn’t likely that the HD-DVD files would produce a properly-constructed film-source 24p output from the ATV. I won’t duplicate anything from that discussion here. But if there is any hope at all then I definitely want to find that out. I’ll read the referenced article and figure out how to upload a small clip to test. Thanks.

[FranknStein7]

I playback VC1 files (from blu-rays not HD-DVDs) all the time without any issues. Just want to thank Infuse for continuing to support this format! Roughly 10% of my blu-ray rips are VC-1, and until every single one of those videos is released on UHD blu-ray (and many of them probably never will be), that’s the the highest quality available for those films.

[Macy]

@james

With regard to the handling of HD-DVD material, Infuse includes a pretty advanced VC-1 decoder, with great support for interlaced material. There’s a good chance it will just work, but due to the relative scarcity of HD-DVD discs and players I’m afraid we don’t have any relevant samples here to confirm this.

If you are in the mood to upload a sample of your own, we’d be happy to test it.

I uploaded a 3 minute clip from 2001:ASO. Hopefully you can tell me if it plays ok from the ATV, and what frame rate it plays at, 24p or 60p.

[Macy]

Anything learned about HD-DVD playback from the clip I uploaded?

[james]

@Macy

Anything learned about HD-DVD playback from the clip I uploaded?

A quick test shows this sample plays at ~30fps, so it will likely need an IVTC solution similar to regular DVDs.

We’re planning to look a bit deeper into this once we start working on the new deinterlacing logic for Infuse 6.

[Macy]

I’ve replaced the previous comment that I wrote here because it was speculation without experimental data. Instead I purchased an Apple TV 4K (ATV4K) yesterday, and I can now report how Infuse on ATV4K works with film-sources from HD-DVDs. And it works very, very well, as I had hoped, but only if the ATV4K’s Match Frame Rate setting is set counter-intuitively.

In order to get 24p (actually 23.976) video output without judder from HD-DVD film-sources (i.e. no frame or field repetitions added to the 24p film frames) the ATV4K Format must be set to 4K SDR 24Hz or 1080p SDR 24Hz (use SDR since HDR didn’t exist for HD-DVDs), AND SET Match Frame Rate OFF. That’s all there is to it. If you leave Match Frame Rate ON, the 24Hz setting will be over-ridden and the output will be 60p (59.94) with judder.

The reason the Match Frame Rate ON setting doesn’t produce 24p is almost certainly because of the way HD-DVD film-sources are encoded. This is rather technical and requires understanding the differences between source frame rates, “picture” encoding rates (and encoding “picture” types, frame vs field), and device output frame rates. The HD-DVD standard required 24 frame-per-second film sources to be encoded as interlaced-sequences of frame “pictures” using 3-2 pulldown flags to make it easy for HD-DVD players to repeat fields to produce 1080i 60 fields-per-second output, and the frame_rate_value is marked as 30 frames-per-second (actually 29.97). Even though the source content was 24p film, 24p progressive sequence encoding was not allowed. Hence, when the ATV4K Match Frame Rate setting is ON it reads 30 frames-per-second as the source frame rate, not 24p. But it also reads that the content is an interlaced-sequence with 3-2 pulldown flags, which is designed to produce the 60i (59.94) interlaced-fields output, not a 30p progressive sequence. And since ATV4K is not programmed to produce interlaced output, it can also use the flags to produce a 60p output rather than 60i output.

In order to produce the more desirable, optimum 24p output, the ATV4K simply outputs the decoded “frame pictures” with no repetition, as it does for 24p Blu-ray movies. Nothing needs to be done by Infuse for this task. It is already optimum - so please don’t break it James . (I should point out that the Plex Server transcodes VC-1 for its own Plex Client apps - not Infuse - and in that process the 24p output is somehow badly messed up with severe judder. )

Since unlike HD-DVDs, Blu-ray film sources are encoded as 24p progressive-sequences of frame “pictures”, the Match Frame Rate ON setting works as desired for Blu-ray movies. But if you set the Format to 4K 24Hz, or 1080p 24Hz, and set Match Frame Rate OFF, both Blu-ray and HD-DVD movie sources will be produced correctly as 24p.

I’ve included attachments that show the ATV4K output frame rate with Match Frame Rate ON (59.94 Hz) and OFF (23.98 Hz). You can see the complete timing information in the Timing Info Pane at the left in both pictures. (Measurements were made with an AccuPel DGA-6000 Ultra-HD Video Analyzer)

[james]

Thanks for following up with this detailed testing info!

It should be helpful once we have a chance to look deeper into this.

[JeremyPeng]

H265 4K HDR 24fps with MKV will also encounter this problem.
I use Infuse pro 5.9.4 for tvOS in Apple TV 4K, Sony x930e can’t enable 24p judder.
But I use Netflix app for tvOS in Apple TV 4K, Sony x930e 24p judder working well.
I guess Infuse play this movie does not use the original frame rate output to HDMI…

REF：
http://www.aftvnews.com/mrmc-update-adds-4k-support-refresh-rate-switching-24p25p30p-support-plex-client-and-more/

[Andre_Newman]

I have many HD-DVD rips, I had Bluray and HD-DVD originally and later bought a lot of HD-DVDs very cheaply when I found I was able to rip them.

I discovered that many, not all, of the ripped files could have the pulldown flag removed and would then play happily at native 24p. Some appeared to be encoded with the 3:2 pulldown but most were encoded at 24p and flagged for 3:2 pulldown. I found that some would lose lip sync or all playback timing at some transitions but most were fine.

I don’t have any of the original m2ts files to test and while I think I used mkvtoolnix looking now it no longer seems to have the 3:2 pulldown setting, it’s all a long while ago but maybe just knowing it has been done is enough to help you find a modern solution.

If you don’t get a solution I could dig out some discs from the loft and give it a try again.

[Macy]

@Andre Newman

I have many HD-DVD rips, I had Bluray and HD-DVD originally and later bought a lot of HD-DVDs very cheaply when I found I was able to rip them.

I discovered that many, not all, of the ripped files could have the pulldown flag removed and would then play happily at native 24p. Some appeared to be encoded with the 3:2 pulldown but most were encoded at 24p and flagged for 3:2 pulldown. I found that some would lose lip sync or all playback timing at some transitions but most were fine.

This probably isn’t the right forum to get into the technical aspects of HD-DVD, but I would point out that hard-telecine (coding each of the 3-2 fields on the disc) was NOT permitted for HD-DVD. So I don’t know how you saw “some” encoded that way unless they were from files that had been processed after ripping from HD-DVDs. It was mandatory (according to the HD-DVD spec) to encode 24p source material (for 60 Hz regions) with 3-2 pull-down flags using frame-based picture encoding. The Apple TV 4K using the Infuse Plex Client with a PLEX server, handles the HD-DVD VC-1 mkv files correctly (because there is no transcoding) to produce 24p output when Match Frame Rate is disabled (otherwise it will think the frame rate should be 30 Hz - i.e. 29.97 Hz).